New Strava Live Segments layout not okay

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    Richard Martin

    Hi, I’m new to the Karoo, one of the main reasons I got it was because I had read that it was the best implementation of Strava Live Segments. However, totally disappointed, whilst the concept is good, it’s completely unreadable on the bike. I’m on an aero bike so my bead is low, and I still can’t read it, everything is far too small to see. Completely useless I’m afraid, tried for 3 hours yesterday on multiple segments, but didn’t have a clue how I was performing in any of them. You need to find a way to use the full screen real estate like Garmin do, otherwise it will never work. I understand that the current format allows for elevation, but I just don’t think it’s relevant. If you’ve started it as a live segment, you’ve ridden it before, you know the elevation profile, you just want to know where you are compared to the next best and KOM, time and distance to go, and then allow some configurable fields such as 3second power which I use to help me. Everything else I really like about the device, but I’m afraid I’ll ge going back to Garmin

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    Marco Soldano

    These are all valid points, seems like the developer at Hammerhead are getting carried away and the layout looks great on  a 46" display, not while you're pinning it on the trail or the road.

    KISS = Keep. It. Stupid. Simple. 

    At least give the option to dumb it down. The screen of the Karoo2 is not THAT large.

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    David Horn

    I really like having the elevation profile, please don't take that away. But I think every other point is valid and well considered.

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    Richard Martin

    I guess it’s individual preference and therefore not easy to suit everyone. Garmin do the elevation profile well, that’s horizontal across the bottom, but then the top 3/4 of the screen is a vertical depiction of your position against others. This makes more sense as you can easily relate to someone at the top of the screen being ahead of you, and someone at the bottom of the screen being behind you, as the screen is always parallel to the ground. That way your current position stays in the middle. So could still achieve everything that it does now, but separate off elevation from position against others

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    Richard Martin

    I was a bit hasty earlier when I said I was going back to Garmin.  What I hear about the guys at Hammerhead is that they're really responsive to customer feedback, whilst I can't guarantee it I strongly suspect that they're strong on agile software development, which I am a big fan of and a practitioner, so making mistakes is part of agile, test and learn!  So hopefully the feedback will help move things on.  In summary, find a way of using the full screen real estate, make it readable in the real world, but don't lose the concept as it's really good

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    Benno Zwanenburg

    @Richard I agree, that's also the way Strava handles Live Segments, see second picture in the first post. You can see at a glance where you are in comparison with your PR and KOM.
    I really hope the guys at Hammerhead can do such like that but I also know some people really like the elevation profile so there must be an easy way to combine it.

    I don't like the whole screen will be used, only the lower half as it is now because I also want to read other data fields which are on top now.

    But I think when they delete all icons, the arrows, the minus sign and the dot at distance, make the text a little bigger and white, than it will be much much better readable. Also the icon on the map (behind the live segments popup) needs to be much bigger.

    Also I don't know if people like the wolf, carrot, recent best and most recent, In my opinion it's useless but I really wanna know if people like it.
    When I sync segments I have to disable all this icons segment by segment and that's a little time consuming. If some people like these icons it will be better that only KOM and PR's are enabled when you sync segments so you can enable all other if you want.

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    Richard Martin

    I like the idea of the wolf and the carrot.  For a year or 2 I used a Wahoo Element, which I loved, really simple to use, and also a good Strava Live Segments depiction.  However, despite constant promises, they never implemented the option to see your performance against friends, only PR and KOM.  KOM is a waste of time for me as I rarely get anywhere near it, I',m motivated by beating friends!  So I went back to Garmin.  I had a look this morning and they still don't have the option 2 years after promising it!  So carrot and wolf work for me.  Agree, first step is to declutter, then maybe that will be enough.  Still think a vertical full screen with the option to configure a couple of fields would work.  Problem with half screen is you need to ensure the fields you want are at the top so they're still visible

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    David Horn

    Could copy Wahoo and just have a Strava page, which shows segment stats when not on one but pops up when you're approaching one.

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    Richard Martin

    The other thing I like about the Garmin method is that you can see which friend you’re closest to.  I have one particular friend who is very competitive with me, we’re always trying to beat each other’s PRs.  That’s the benefit of using a vertical screen, there’s more space to do that sort of thing

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    Duncan Sargeant

    Adding my voice in the mix: the fundamentals of the Karoo approach is bellisimo :)  I love the overlay, I love have 6(!) data fields still visible on a segment - Honestly Wahoo and Garmin look quite junior in comparison.

    This is 2 steps forward (drawer management) 1 back for me (clarity - being black-on-dark-orange contrast and the cluttered yellow dots), so I hope they're listening and make the minor tweaks needed.  Wrote it about in a different thread -  https://support.hammerhead.io/hc/en-us/community/posts/1260802168870/comments/1260803659889

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    Ornaled

    I think it could be improved in simple way by expanding the drawer. You are not interested in segment - slide the drawer down. Partially interested - keep it on the half of the screen. Very interested in segment - expand the drawer full screen for better visibility and readability :)

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    Richard Martin

    Think that's a great idea :)

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    Benno Zwanenburg

    I want to keep both hands on my steer when doing a segment on a mountainbike. Maybe for road you can swipe but during mountainbiking you almost can’t swipe (depending on where you’re riding of course)

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    Richard Martin

    Or make it a configure option, ie open full drawer as default or half draw as default

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    Ornaled

    You are right, Benno. It's hard to swipe or even play with buttons on MTB while trying to do a segment. Sometimes it's even hard to look at the screen when navigating really hard or technical terrain.
    I think that Richard's idea to have an option for default segment drawer size is a pretty good one.

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    Jerome icardo

    As it is now the SLS is almost useless. I can use it to know when a segment approach and it tells me when it finish. Today I took 4 koms and on nine of them I was able to see clearly my time forward. I had to rely on the graphics to have a guess. It’s extremely frustrating when you are into pain to not be able to get at a glance the numbers you need. Is that so complicated to show the time forward or behind in a big size. The graphic is nice but I secondary.
    Kom is about numbers and how is it now it doesn’t work because of the size and the colours. Even those arrows next your time are really confusing. They add unnecessary materials and make the lisibility worst. The colours makes the informations not visible at all. Black on white is the best.

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    Mark

    I have to agree here, on my ride this weekend the SLS layout is really unclear (contrast and too much in a small space).

    Some good suggestions here, and i should add i'm riding a road bike in a relatively aero position so my face is close to the computer and i struggled to understand what was going on!

    For what it is worth, i think a full dedicated and simple SLS page would be the way forward.

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    Jerome icardo

    I hope that we not gonna have to wait months to see some modifications, using SLS daily I don´t wanna spend my life waiting for an update that may never come.

    Let's wait for the next update, to see if I go back to Wahoo or not (Wahoo is not perfect but at least the numbers are visible and it works for what it supposed to do).

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    Brandon Babcock

    Very much agree with @Ornaled - that would be brilliant. 

    Competing on segments can vary quite a bit. If its only a few minutes, I'm going as hard and as fast as I can - A quick glance is all I can manage at this point while staying safe - the new SLS interface is too cluttered for this type of effort.

    If I'm going for a local climb segment, this could take 30 minutes plus - in a scenario like a (longer) climb, I'd like to see more metrics to help me keep a consistent pace, in other works, I'd still like to see my speed, cadence, HR, and power.

    So perhaps multiple interface options could work best. As @ornaled mentioned, expanding to a full drawer for a hard effort could work best - with a the few seconds of count down, it gives me time to swipe up (or down to ignore). If I decide to keep it as is, it should still be simple, less cluttered. That said, I do use the Wolf/Carrot features, I love them and hope these continue to stay. 

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    Richard Martin

    I went out for a couple of hours today to play around with it. I do really like the concept, but there are a few things that need changing
    1. Black on orange doesn’t work, and is made worse by the small size. I was constantly trying to figure out if I was chasing my PR or the wolf. Carrot is a bit better visually
    2. What I like with Garmin is that I know who the carrot is. That’s important as it helps me decide if I’m going to have a crack at that segment or not bother. This could be a full drawer visual, ie swipe up to see more detail.
    3. I also had a Garmin watch on with SLS, there was a massive difference between the time behind PR to that of the Karoo, il to 20% at times. Maybe that’s just down to the way each chooses to calculate it, seemed to work out ok by the end
    4. When combined with route guidance it’s reall fiddly, if the route guidance pops up when you’re in a segment then a swipe down closes SLS as well. Moving between tabs on such a small screen is difficult in summer with no gloves on, I can imagine in winter it’s like trying to do brain surgery with a baseball glove on 🤣

    I suspect we all want different things. For me, make the existing screen more readable with colours and fonts and sizes. And then make the full drawer experience similar to what we have now at the bottom, but with a vertical depiction above it like you get with Garmin, including the names of people. I can live without data fields such as power etc, they shouldn’t really matter when you’re chasing a time

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    Richard Martin

    In fact, to point number 2, once I know who I’m chasing by seeing the name in the full drawer, I would probably swipe back down to half drawer so I’ve got the 4 fields on the standard screen available to me, which you can obviously configure however you want. I have speed, 3 second power, Cadence and gears

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    Jami

    Hello all, and thanks for the wealth of feedback and suggestions!

    Strava Live Segments has been a hot topic for some time. There are lots of variables and lots of opinions. Even reading back through this thread, there are instances of people pointing out something "useless" and others saying please don't take that away! This is definitely an area where it will always be hard to please everyone. That said, our goal is to please everyone to the fullest extent that we can!

    Please keep feedback like this coming. Sometimes it's hard to read that people aren't happy with an aspect of the device, but we know that's how we get better. Many of our best ideas have come from all of you!

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    Jerome icardo

    So I understand that this is not something on the pipes in a near future. For me the Karoo become useless now.
    Great job to kill something with such a great potential. Such a waste. This is nothing about to please some people and not the others, this is just that as it is now no one can read the numbers.
    So disappointed that I will sell imy unit today and go back to Wahoo 🙋‍♂️

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    Richard Martin

    Hi Jami, completely understand that you can’t please everyone. However, the one consistent is that no one can differentiate the icons for PR and Wolf, and that the numbers are too small. In the spirit of agile, perhaps this is the place to start?

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    Mark

    Hi Jami, I have to agree with Richard here. The over riding issue is visibility and the problem is that whilst the K2 has a bigger screen than say my Garmin 830, it is too small for the sheer amount of information you’re now cramming into the visuals of this update.

    For the meantime, we could all disable the SLS function. Personally simply cannot read it and it clutters up the screen. What a shame.

    Whoever wants to sell their K2 out of sheer outrage and spite, let me know, I’m more than happy to buy it off of you for a few dollars for “spare parts” for a quick sale! Ha

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    zero71

    I'm going to agree with everyone that I find the SLS screen hard to read. However I'm going to disagree with the opp on what should be on it. For mortals that can't get anywhere near the KOM, the Carrot and Wolf are way more important than the KOM, so please don't get rid of them. To appease everyone, a global toggle that allows you to enable only those you are interested in across every segment would be welcome.

    I also really like the elevation gradient and general layout of the K2 version. I do agree that the fonts and icon sizes, etc need to be reworked to make them easier to read - larger inverted tear drops around larger icons, with the point of the tear drop showing the position on the elevation gradient would be useful. I'm not against losing the gradient entirely, but honestly, most segments are way shorter than the extreme example in the opp.

    For me - bigger icons. Bigger fonts.

    I'm perfectly happy that it takes up the bottom half of the screen when I'm on a segment. The SLS gui was part of the reason for buying the K2 - that half screen overlay with Wolf, Carrot, etc.  I put all essential data on the top half so it's always visible. If I need to follow the map then I'm probably not chasing a segment as I don't know the road well enough and few segments span turns at junctions.

    We all want different things. Can't please us all. 

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    David Horn

    Hi Jami,

    I agree with you that making changes to the layout at this point can't satisfy everyone and really needs an A/B beta test.

    But there are some simple changes (font colours such as black on orange difficult to read being one) that could be changed in seconds with little effort but yielding big improvements.

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    zero71

    One more thing I'd like to add. I always want to see my Speed, Cadence, and HR. I don't like the way Garmin and Wahoo do it, where they take away all the fields and put you on a SLS screen. For me that is useless and I navigate away from it back to my data fields. I could live with it taking up 2/3 of the screen for more legibility if it compressed the top two data rows into the upper third whilst it was visible. My preference is to keep it in the tab drawer as is, but improve the legibility in some manner that appease everyone here. Good luck with that.

     

    Edit: I'm.with Richard on almost all points. 

    Perhaps a really simple change. Colour code the icons. White bubble with black wolf. Black bubble with gold PR, white bubble with orange carrot, yellow bubble with black crown, or something like that. It would certainly make it easier to distinguish what you are chasing. 

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    Benno Zwanenburg

    Jamie it’s very easy, all comments say it’s unreadable at the moment: there are too much and double icons, icons are too small and text is unreadable. It will be very easy to change that.

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    Richard Martin

    Orange is a really difficult background colour to work with. But if you look at Strava branding, they always use white font against the orange background. It’s far more readable than black font

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