When is the Karoo3..

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    John Sievert

    Not soon enough.  If it's not this spring for the NA cycling season, it's going to hurt.  

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    Lee A Dorney

    They've said they're concentrating on the k2...

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    John Sievert

    Yep, I’ve heard that too. Their CPU is too old and slow, the battery consumption is worst in class by a long way, and they don’t have the ability to customize with third party apps which should be easy given Android OS.

    I’m a fanboy of the Karoo back to the Kickstarter days, but the crappy battery life and the failure to reconnect to sensors after a pause has driven me to a Garmin 1040 but I’ll be back when these things get fixed. The problems were a major issue on my third major bike trip with a Karoo. In each case, the Karoo was aggravating and it’s a good thing I had a watch for backup.

    I charge my Garmin about once every 30-40 hours and it never fails to pick up my sensors almost immediately after a pause. Boot up is almost instant and while the screen is lower resolution hardware, in practice there is little to no difference with the K2. The Garmin UI is pretty bad but it does work.

    So hopefully HH pays attention and gets on this. They really can’t afford another year with the same hardware. That would be a mistake. The strong suit of the Karoo is really in things like the gravel segment and that segment needs all day or more battery capacity and it needs to be able to reliably pick up sensors after a longish pause.

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    Lee A Dorney

    'They really can’t afford another year with the same hardware' - exactly...I personally would prefer 6 months, it's a disgrace... #battery

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    John Sievert

    Battery life of current bike computers.

    * Edge 840: 26 hours
    * Edge 1040: 35 hours
    * Wahoo Roam: 17 hours
    * Karoo: 8-10 hours.

    My experience is that the Garmin numbers are quite conservative too.

    The competitors are multiples of the Karoo battery life approaching an order of magnitude. That’s ridiculous.

    I’m hoping there is an announcement this winter. An obvious launch time would be before spring in North America and the EU. But I doubt it and would love to be proven wrong.

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    Lee A Dorney

    Even when the k2 was released I thought the ram is low and the battery, they didn't future proof it for a fact. Tho I think the k2 was released prior to HH getting bought by Sram and it depends on how up the scale it is for them as a company, they've already lost di2 officially

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    John Sievert

    For once, I was ahead of the curve.  I had a Di2 bike but converted it over to eTap because I discovered how well eTap worked on my travel bike.  Then Shimano had their misplaced hissy fit but the blowback missed me.   So the Di2 thing is kind of a "don't care" for me but it points up another problem since this problem gets fixed by sideloading an app.  

    I spent a lot of time fiddling with side loading (I'm an electrical engineer with a chip background) which seems to have potential to add enormous functionality, except you run smack into the same wimpy (old) CPU problem and the battery life issue again.  If you side load apps, you'll likely have increased battery consumption when there isn't any to give away *and* (not "or") the CPU gets bogged down pretty fast.  It's just too much for a CPU that's 4-5 generations of IC technology past.  

    But if there was more under the hood there, a whole lot of things could be solved with an app store (and another revenue opportunity for HH).  It's worked pretty well for Garmin with their ConnectIQ store. Hopefully this gets fixed with whatever hardware they pick for the K3 (or hopefully *have* picked at this point). 

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    Lee A Dorney

    @John - I've always believed and I feel others have to re the Karoo, cept I just don't see HH in the driving seat of this vehicle/cycle computer, more like in a taxi alongside said vehicle never mind in the backseat.. 🙏

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    MikeF

    The comparison with the Garmin x040‘s is ridiculous, they are of a different era. The K2 was almost half the price of the x40‘s and HH have reduced again this week; K2 €280 now the G-1040 €600, and any fool who buys a Solar €750.
    The bigger battery in the x40‘s has caused Garmin huge problems, everything is squeezed up - Gradient doesn‘t work; temp 3-7C too high etc. Navigation still giving „Route calculation error“ and subsequently packing up and this after 9 years of the Edge.
    Look at their forum, even more moaning that here. I sent my 1040 back and bought the HH, navi much better and the unsolvable bugs (re-routing; battery, elev. gain) I can live with because the most important feature, the navi, works, you can actually see where you are going with the brilliant screen.

    As too the original question, it‘s probably next Spring now as the northern hemisphere is the market and we have winter coming. Unless, of course with the new price drop they are going to give us a Christmas present.

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    John Sievert

    Doesn't matter.  The Edge 840 and 540 neatly bracket the K2 in MSRP and during sales by about $50 more for the 840 and $50 less for the 540.  Both 840 and 540 have 26 hour battery life compared to 8-10 for the K2.  In other words, more than 2.5X the battery life in comparison at the same price point.  

    The K2 is advertised as a class leading performer so as such, it is often compared in articles to Edge 10x0 from Garmin and the entire product line from Wahoo.  

    All the Garmin units, including the watch I own, flawlessly connect and reconnect to the sensors (especially to power meters). So does my ancient Wahoo ELEMNT.  I own a Garmin Epix gen 2 watch and it does as well (and has better battery life to boot).  For the records, I have two K2's, 1 Wahoo ELEMNT, 1 Edge 1000, 1 Edge 1040 and the Garmin Epix Gen 2 watch.  All of my other computers boot far faster than the K2. 

    The K2 reconnects only if the stop is brief.  If either the sensor or the K2 sleeps, then it won't reconnect and likely takes intervention up to and including rebooting the K2.  

    So, any way you cut it, the K2 fails against the top of the line competitors if you look at Tier 1 units.  It also fails against its price point competitors if you're using that comparison.  

    My job is to ride the bike and it's the bike computer's job to faithfully follow the navigation and to manage sensors.  When I have to start doing its job for it, then there's a problem.  

    All of these issues have been in front of the Karoo product management for a long time.  They have a zealot's view that no one could possibly need more than 8-10 hours of battery life and, as such, they are last in class in battery performance by embarrassing multiples of their battery capacity.  This was an issue even at the beginning of the K1. 

    None of the other competitors at any tier, including watches, have any issues with the sensor stack/connection at all.  Yet Karoo can't reliably reconnect and it has arcane limitations that no other computer has - 15 sensor limit and this goofy "sensor priority."   After I spent yet another  (this was the third with a K2 issue) "bucket list" trip attending to the reconnection of my sensors on my K2, I'd had enough.  The K2 is fine for a daily 2 hour ride but it sh*ts the bed on a whole day long adventure.   I've got multiple thousands of miles on the 1040 and I've experienced none of the problems described above and it's working fine.  Yeah, the UI is pretty arcane but once it's set up, you don't have to touch it either.  It gets charged every 30-40 hours whether it needs it or not.  What would be nice is a K3 with 24+ hours of battery life and serious software reliability.  That's a winner. 

    I'm a karoo fanboy and I'll likely buy a K3 when/if it's ever released (and these problems addressed).  I sure want it to succeed but being in denial about it's deficits is not going to make it a market leader.

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    Lee A Dorney

    Very true John, that's a great post...I totally 2nd that 🙏 - I keep saying; it could be the ultimate, but they just cannot be bothered...

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    Lee A Dorney

    You also opened my eyes to what Garmin's are like, last time I had one was the 815..them they just made them smaller, for some crazy reason

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    MikeF

    Leaving aside the rant, the sensors issue is not common to all K2s. Whilst I have seen a couple posts about sensors dropping out on the forum, I have never had this problem and my K2 sleeps often as I have it set to 2 mins (yes, to save battery). The K2 restarts immediately and all is ok, including all 5 sensors, two of which are Garmin.

    As you have 2 K2‘s I assume both have this problem, so … very unlucky. My K2 is a year old, if both yours are older, why not try to get replacements and see if the actually did a small HW fix. One HH answer in a post states that they had a SW fix for this, but maybe it‘s not 100%.

    As for the number of sensors, read both help pages for this. Whilst the K2 has only 15 ANT it has ANY number of BLE! Most modern sensors come with both, so the K2 has more capabilities than the 1040. 

    Back to the original post. It appears to me that HH did have the K3 planned for this summer. The K2 price drop and the fact that stocks were stated to be limited, strongly suggested that. My thought at the time, when this didn‘t materialise, was that they had found a major issue and had to delay the rollout. Another possibility is that SRAM have finally started to take an interest and wanted a revamped K3 to better integrate with them and/or for it to become a SRAM product and thus a re-modelling is taking place.

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    Michael Trachtenberg

    Not every new model is an improvement; i.e., Cycliq. Coming from Garmin, I've been pleased with the K2 in terms of performance, features, battery life, and value. Seriously, my biggest annoyance is the temperature reads low.

    The K3 would either have to be a huge improvement or offer a large trade-in on the K2 or both.

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    schmadde

    Actually for me the K2 was already a step back from the K1. I have only bought a K2 because of the support end and the ancient android version on the K1 (and because the maps are so freaking huge and the memory extremely limited - combined with no SD card slot. 

    I suspect they want to clear K2 stock first and it didn't sell as well as they expected. I am not holding my breath wrt K3, I don't think they will improve it in areas I care for. 

    I find it funny that almost everyone complains about battery life - today we had a discussion in the road bike forum that "only 2 per mille of users" really care for more battery life than the karoo or other android based bike computers deliver. I myself do not even know how long the karoo battery lasts, since I no longer do 15 hour rides with 250km and 5.000 meters of altitude gain.

     

    How long does the karoo battery actually last? What is your experience? I never managed to empty it beyond 50%. 

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    John Sievert

    I was one of the original testers on the K2 and I was in the ATG since inception until August when they reconstituted the group. I'm also an electrical engineer from the semiconductor industry so I understand very well how all of this operates (or is supposed to). I was also one of two ATG members who debugged the Stages early power meter problems on the Karoo and helped resolve that.

    All of my K2's are only ridden with the most up to date software. So it hasn't been fixed.

    The power meter I have trouble with now is the
    SRAM power meter for the new wide Force crankset on my gravel bike. My wife also has problems with her older (by one year) SRAM crank power meter. My road bike has a Stages Gen 2 powermeter and it has the same issue. So I don't think it's related at all to powermeter and I think it's related to the arcane sensor stack that HH has for their sensor interconnect. No other computer supplier had limitations on sensor number not requires the user to set the "priority." They need to fix this. One would think that the K2 would be bulletproof with their own power meters.

    There is no way I would invest in yet another K2 when it is hardware that's way at the end of its technological lifetime and I already own them. That would be waste of money when I already have two K2's. It's not up to me to fix it, it's up to Hammerheqd.

    I will say this - the reliability of the sensor interconnect and the reliability of the software overall on Garmin products is seriously better than on the K2. They need to be on this whether or not they introduce a K3 anytime soon.

    I do agree that the operation of the Karoo software in terms of user interface and functionality is considerably ahead of Garmin. I like it a lot and if the hardware was more competitive (battery and performance) and the software was more reliable, I'd buy a K3 on introduction. It's the computer I want to use but these other issues have just become showstoppers for me. I ride my bike because I love riding and for the physical and mental relaxation it brings. Lack of reliability and "range anxiety" on the battery while touring/all day rides are aggravating and detract seriously from the experience. Bottom line, I'm off the Karoo until they fix these issues. Hopefully that's soon and they get it done properly this time. The Karoo is the computer I really want to use, but not like this.

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    MikeF

    Do you read anyone else’s posts?

    No, well read this: (Max 30, at 0ne time 12):
    https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=RpX8SeCLBd2K8sggJk4L56

    Now this, basically any number (but it doesn’t state simultaneously):
    https://support.hammerhead.io/hc/en-us/articles/360051594094-Karoo-2-Pairing-Sensors-#:~:text=Your%20Karoo%202%20can%20connect,15%20ANT%2B™%20sensors%20simultaneously.

    Now see the Garmin users moaning about sensors
    https://support.hammerhead.io/hc/en-us/articles/360051594094-Karoo-2-Pairing-Sensors-#:~:text=Your%20Karoo%202%20can%20connect,15%20ANT%2B™%20sensors%20simultaneously.

    Perhaps change the sequence of your sensors.

    I have a Quarq Power Meter, in fact 2 on different bikes, and have absolutely no trouble at all.

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    MikeF

    Last should be:
    garmin 1040 sensor problems site:forums.garmin.com

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    Lee A Dorney

    MikeF - face facts matey, what John Sievert exemplifies are true and total facts I could only wish to write, I don't know him but he seems to really knows his stuff with respects. Everything he points out is the actual essence of this cycle-computer! Yes we know, with the greatest of respects that Garmin's have issues and have for a long time too even back to the 815, yet they are the goto for many people... Right now Wahoo is the cycle computer too own, it just works, so does the k2 but has crazy quirks that REALLY dent that experience. Till then, the
    Wahoo Roam or Bolt are at the top of the stack... The k3, let's dust off that crystal ball..🤪

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    Cristiano Cunha

    I work in a bike factory, and 1 or 2 months ago I asked a SRAM employee that was there making a presentation of some new stuff, about if there is a new HH k3?? I heard that it’s coming for sure 2024. I believe it’s for summer or a little bit early.

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