Removal of Di2 integration. Refund please.
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there is no contract between you and HH and certainly not for particular functionality, the contract, if any exists, its for them to provide you with a computer for use with bikes etc., Also, I'm sure if you read the small print there will be clauses stating that they will or will not guarantee functionality (current or future). I've never seen anything in their marketing for Di2 support, but to be fair, it's not something I use, and if you chose to purchase a device for a single function and the licensor decided to cancel the license, there is nothing you can do as a consumer.
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I never mentioned a contract with Hammerhead, but with the supplier of my device (a large retailer).
You can't just remove a core function of a device and expect the consumer to be happy about it.
Ultimately of course, only a judge could decide how "core" that functionality is to the enjoyment of the product. -
I am sure Consumer protection laws ( UK/ EU ) would side with the customer. If my Sat nav stops working in the car because of poor du diligence when a take over takes place, I don't accept that, its a key feature of the product. I have put my complaint into the retailer from whom I purchased the product from as this, who ever is to blame is unacceptable from a consumer level.
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I'm in the UK by the way, so should have mentioned that. I believe our consumer protection laws may go a little further than some other territories.
As of today, under "product specification" on the website of the company I bought the device from, it clearly states "sensor support - Di2".
Removal of this functionality is all it takes to contact your retailer and ask for a refund. -
@M L me to, others in the EU should have the same if not more protections. Thats the exact question I have posed to the retailer I purchased from. Loosing this functionality is a major issue for HH, which I suspect affects 50%+ of their customers, far lighter impact on Shimano, which is what angers me so much, in that Hammerhead should have seen, predicted this risk and mitigated with legal/ commercial means to ensure they protected their large % of consumers. Just how fragile these arrangements are makes me concerned for the long term stability and ability of this product and project. Serious credibility issues if their business can be impacted by an albeit nasty, bullying yet powerful act by Shimano against a growing rival.
As raised in another thread it reeks of a rushed process, limited due diligence just to get a deal over the line what ever the cost as the cash burn rate was just so high, ( without any evidence to support ). It feels panicked and consumers bear the brunt and pain. The opportunity to pull the plug should have been protected what ever the method or protocol technically is used. The narrative "its Shimano fault" is wrong, SRAM have given Shimano the reason and opportunity to deal them a blow. Its a blatant own goal, absurd and appears completely amateur in the way it has exposed itself. If 50% of your market can be impacted at a whim of a competitor without recourse , your business resilience model ( if there even is one ) is way off.
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Jeremy, everything you've said is spot-on, but fanboys are going to down-arrow you anyway.
The worst aspect of this for me is the customer service response of encouraging device owners to contact Shimano and air their grievances.
As I say to every company that tries this approach "don't make your problem my problem".
However you want to look at this, Hammerhead have to accept responsibility. Other device manufacturers haven't had their Di2 licences withdrawn. What's next, removal of GPS functionality? Not as far-fetched as it sounds I'm afraid. -
@M L
> As of today, under "product specification" on the website of the company I bought the device from, it clearly states "sensor support - Di2".
Does that work against Shimano as well? Their D-Fly product page (https://web.archive.org/web/20210505183038/https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technologies/component/details/d-fly.html) used to list Hammerhead as a connected partner.
Would EU/UK consumer protection laws support a customer wanting a refund for they Di2 system since it now doesn't work as advertised, assuming they purchased the system when the D-Fly product page mentioned HH?
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"Would EU/UK consumer protection laws support a customer wanting a refund for they Di2 system since it now doesn't work as advertised?"
Unless you bought direct from Shimano, you wouldn't have a contract with them. If you felt aggrieved, you'd have to take it up with your retailer. That's how consumer law works unfortunately.
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I too am very disappointed. I would not have bought the Hammerhead if it had not had the full integration with Shimano, and I think that goes for all of us Shimano Di2 Riders. I actually have Di2 on both my Road bike and my Gravel bike.
I would like to also point out that as a user of my Shimano Hood Buttons, this removal of use raises a safety issue. It is certainly much less safe to have to take your hands off the handlebars to change screens on my Karoo 2. Changing screens is something I do 100 times on a ride! I see there is no note about removing the integration of the Garmin Varia. will it be next???
I will not be installing this update, and in an email exchange with Hammerhead was told my device would not be supported if I was running old software.... as if to only rub salt into the wound they created. I am sure they could have worked out a deal to keep the integration for a price.
Did Wahoo loose functionality? I will be selling my Karoo 2 once the Garmin 1040 or whatever new unit comes out.
the email responses from my conversation with Karoo, do nothing to want to keep me as a customer. its incredible that they would stop supporting older versions of software for something as significant as the loss of this integration.
I can live without battery level and hardly ever use the gear reporting - but making my hood buttons useless is a feature I will not live without.
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@Gary Garmin makes the Varia, not Shimano.
I agree, losing function of the hood buttons would be my biggest loss, I haven't updated the latest software and will hang on to the current version as long as I can. The Karoo will soon become the lowest selling bike computer as di2 users will avoid it and current karoo owners with di2 will eventually sell theirs off, give it away, or throw it away into a drawer to never be used again.
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I tried to contact shimano CS and they gave just as S@%t a response as HH…
However It’s just easier for me to change head unit than change groupsets across my 2 road and 1 gravel bikes with di2 at this point (I’ve looked, can’t even get SRAM force etap until July or red etap here until later let alone the horrendous costs, plus changing all my wheelsets), and so like some others I’m just waiting for the Garmin 1040 at this point.
I am simply more invested in di2 than I am HH, and sram/HH Fan boys are going to downvote me, but I’ve been here a long time K2 user myself I fully supported the beta test style constant update cycle of HH with my Karoo 2. I won’t sell my K2, like I kept my little Garmin 830 and recently bought a wahoo bolt to play with.
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This would mean that the "community" needs to build a new firmware like HH's first since:
1. You are not allowed to just copy it.
2. You don't have the source code.Suppose you have rebuild the source code. In that case it is not just add Di2 integration (how do you get the ANT private protocol from Shimano to do so?), but add every two weeks the same changes in the firmware as HH does.
I guess: Mission Impossible.
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Exact. But if HH filtered everything and facilitated the work, it would be possible... More complicated things have been seen in the history of android, playstation, Dji, and other closed systems
As I say, for many losing di2 functionality is a very big loss at this point.
Staying on old firmware for life is also not a great solution. I wanted di2 and Tyrewiz compatibility, and there just isn't a firmware that supports both...I will have to be unhappy on Garmin and its stinky screen
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I don't believe a full firmware would be needed, a proper API doc + side loading of 3rd party application APK file should be doable...
Edit: looks like this is potentially doable?
https://github.com/hammerheadnav/karoo-sdk
retrieving the di2 data is not going to be an easy thing though
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So, shimano has an android app for Di2???? Why not side load it, all we need is the APK file and then Di2 fuctionality is restored....Or am I missing something.
Shimano asked HH to remove integrated sDi2 support. nothing about Users doing on their own
I'll post on xDa developers and see if anyone can capture and post the APK
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As others have stated, I have 2 bikes with Di2 - road and gravel, and was really liking my Karoo 2. I pre-ordered the Karoo 2 directly from Hammerhead, so have no retailer to go back to. I do use the screen changing buttons, but also use the gear information on every ride, and rely on battery level indications. I am extremely disappointed in Shimano for doing this, and have tried to let them know (email and just wrote a physical letter to Taizo Shimano, President and CEO of Shimano Inc.). I have sent a copy of the letter to Pieter Morgan at HH.
But, I am also exceptionally disappointed by Hammerhead's cavalier response to this. I have no idea if they are fighting it, or what they are doing? I was an early adopter, and would NOT have bought the Karoo 2, if it did not have the ability to display Di2 data. If SRAM wants to win us over, they should offer an exceptional refund. I asked Hammerhead about a refund, and was shut down completely. I prefer my Karoo 2 over Garmin, and would prefer to continue using the Karoo 2. For now, I won't update; but I'd really like to know if Hammerhead is doing anything to try to restore this needed functionality?
John
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Good point, M L; but wouldn't they just claim that I had received the shipment? Plus the way that Hammerhead charged me was somewhat messy . Deposit payment was fine, but final payment was problematic. My Visa issuer (which I Paypal goes through as well) is a pretty staunch defender of its clients though. I;ll check into that - thanks!
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100% agree
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQufDU7EyMU
solution for me: In the future try to boycott shimano products, Closed company that does not use standards
For now, I stay in Shimano with Garmin. I can't change my bikes all of a sudden. But my next acquisitions, I will keep it in mind
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John, fully agree with your comments. Seems we are literally the Pawns in the middle of a dispute between two corporate entities. One which is being a Bully and the other which has used as "Beta test dummies" Both have their pleasures and joys, but we are now seeing the bad side or commercial and missed opportunities to assess risk.
Sorry to read that HH are not honouring their product, they took that line with me until I explained I am in the UK and consumer law trumps their refusal. At that stage they quietly referred me to the retailer who has offered me a full refund due to a removal of a feature. HH ( poorly in my view ) said they never promised continuity of this feature, which prompted me to ask if there was any other key features at risk, which I was assured was not the case. the hype was about the progress forward of this journey with them, hence the tolerance and patience of consumers being test cases. I even asked if they could convince SRAM to do a favourable trade in against Di2, which I thought would have been a great PR coup against Shimano and support a switch, this was dismissed, perhaps undertandably but in my view this would have said "F*@k You Shimano" and customers we love you quite clearly. hey ho.
HH need to own and resolve this with all commercial, legal and technical means available, standing there blaming Shimano is helping no one.
Hope you get some support from your CC company.
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Honestly don't care enough to dump Shimano and I'm just too deep into the ecosystem with multiple bikes.
I was an early adopter, I pre ordered and had to wait 4 months (including delays) for my Karoo 2 in 2020. However aside from that first stumble, I've generally enjoyed the user experience and device. But when it comes to this I don't feel like i've found sufficient evidence that HH have really tried to negotiate with Shimano or are themselves seeing this as an all PR is good PR time to passively push users to SRAM, who own them now. As @John Schwenk wrote HH response to this has been "cavalier" and IMHO loose at best. But that's my opinion, who cares, certainly not HH or Shimano!
In the meantime my other (non cyclist) half bought me a Garmin 1040 because upon returning to Garmin, the user interface on my old Edge 830 plus was doing my head in and she and our dogs were getting annoyed at my frustrations. Who doesn't love a new toy?! I'm interested in seeing what, where and how HH will move now in the market place, and won't be consigning my K2 unit to ebay just yet though!
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@Mark I couldn't agree with you more, and will be looking at the new Garmin 1040, despite my previous frustration with Garmin set-up and reliability. I'm curious to hear about your Garmin 1040 experience. And like you, I was an early adopter and also had to wait 4 months or more. I'd like to hear more about what Hammerhead is trying to do now to solve this, if anything?
And like you, Mark, I won't sell my Karoo 2 just yet; because I really like the functionality.
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@john schwenk
Garmin Edge 1040 (not solar, I live in the UK there's no point) - Lovely big screen that is easy to ride in the mixed sunny / overcast conditions of yesterday. One ride so far and the UX is a tiny bit better, but the same deep menus of options that have me googling at every new turn. As you most of you now the Garmin system is mature and perhaps has TOO many features compared to the HH but who ever complained about that? Some things can be set using the app, like the profiles, and I can't remember whether that was ever a thing with the Edge 830 plus. Others frustrate, I haven't figured out livetrack actually works - in a way having the SIM in the HH K2 was fit and forget with a fixed URL for my other half to follow. Garmin is supposed to send the route and my position to my other half however that didn't happen (perhaps because I was free riding a training route that i do not need navigation for). However, there are definitely elements of HH K2 that simply just work better because it is perhaps a slightly simpler device not burdened by an old clunky OS with so many features.
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