Calories count?
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Just bought a Karoo and done a couple rides.
Where is the calories count, I can't seem to find it in the menu for the screens.
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@ Alonso F.
A formula that doesn't take into account at least max HR is utter bonkers, far worse than useless for an individual.
My threshold HR is higher than many people my age's max HR... and neither I nor them are massive outliers.If they did implement wild calorie guessing I would hope they'd do it in a much better way (which certainly can be done!) and also make it clear how very very inaccurate it'll still be.
Just remember this - calories are energy. Watts, energy. If there really was a good way to derive energy from HR there'd hardly be any need for power meters outside super short intervals.
No one is telling Hammerhead how it's unacceptable the Karoo doesn't show them their watts off their HR. But it's exactly the same thing! It's just that nobody would be happy with a watt estimate that's best case scenario 30% off, they realize it's better to not have anything at all. But when it comes to calories people somehow think being presented with made up information is not only perfectly fine, but a required feature. Why? -
Following this for a long time and being very patient and giving hammerhead a long time to decide for their product strategy what's important first, I have to say I am very disappoint by now. I now have the feeling they know better what the customers need than the customers themselves. Hr based calorie count, even if it is a rough estimate is still very useful for nutrition control during long rides and the value should be quite easy to achieve by activity hr, correct hr zones or the max and body weight... I do this on my own based on simple statistic values on paper regularly.
Get moving hammerhead, what's your point in not adressing this request within two years, that is really snobby and it cast a very bad light on your policy to develop a bottom up product to compete against the "shut up and buy" major products.
Remember that people buy your products, because they have the feeling you are willung to listen to them. If this feeling is not returned there is no reason to buy your product, because -
And please allow one more remark: hammerhead, work on your reliability. Your are reaching out for the crown 👑, but effectively you are building a quite competitive cycle computer with supreme navigation that is just not reliable, in multiple terms: battery capacity, no recharging in wet conditions and crash probability. These three points make your product unsuitable for any long distance race or challenge... I would never go again on a gps based challenge without running my Garmin watch in parallel...
So, please listen to your fans ( I am one, really) otherwise you will be lost... -
They could've made the K2 the size of the K1 and have massive battery life but that doesn't appear to be what the market wanted. Doubt there'll be a K3 anytime soon since current unit seems quite future-proofed. It's the software side that needs work anyways imo.
Fwiw I've recharged in rain, by having cable plugged in from the start and activating powerbank only later. I think that's the main thing - definitely don't plug in if the port is already wet...
As long as powerbank is covered it should be alright I think. But maybe it'd be trouble at the contact side if it was really pouring, no idea. What competitors can you recharge without considering water?Never had a crash during a ride.
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You know what, a Power Meter is quite an expensive bit of kit and one which many cyclists just don't really need for the level of cycling they do.
These cyclists are likely to still want an idea of calories burnt. Yes, it's not accurate but maybe for many is consistency of count that's more important than anything.
The problem for HH here is just about everything else does include this less accurate method including phones, watches and cycling computers. Failing to provide something which is such a basic expectation is surprising and will result in some not to purchase it regardless of how inaccurate it may be.
On the other points of rain and crash resistancy, is the K2 really any worse than its competitors?
None of them have a rainproof charging method, how could they and I'd challenge any such device to survive a hard crash at speed. -
I have had my K1 since they were launched. I am now in the market for a new computer. If I buy another brand it will be solely because after years of asking, they have not implemented one of the most basic of exercise metrics - calories.
I have been riding a long time, over 20 years, and to me calories count. I still remember a century I did in the Hill Country of Austin TX. It was HOT, constant up and down hills and I was solo, my friend was cramping and had to stop earlier. When I looked at the data from my Polar later it showed over 6000 calories that ride.
The point is not that it is completely accurate, or that it is comparable across multiple devices or riders. The point is that is like any other metric, its a unit of measurement of performance from ride to ride, year to year as my weight fluctuates or my physical condition changes.
Polar 15 years ago was excellent at measuring calories WITHOUT a power meter. People I ride with that have Garmin or Wahoo get calories without a power.
Hammerhead has had plenty of time. they roll out updates monthly with new screen layouts, change button functions, new features, and fixes.
If they wanted to implement calories they could have by now.
The simple fact is that they "say" they want to be the Best Cycling Computer. But there are reasons why the are not mentioned in the top 5 of most serious cycling review.
They don't listen.
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I remember me back last year when the first Karoo shows up.
I bought it and was a happy user untill I didn’t couple of workout with it and I’ve noticed the calories are working. ( remember back than not now).
Calorie is important for the workout!!
Sadly a update shows up and took the features, I’ve opened a ticket with the support and they answer was like you need a power meter for this features.
So I’ve decided to go back to Garmin 1030 plus I must say I never had moved to Karoo.
Garmin is just a excellent device.
Karoo team are focused on building a good gps device, but they forgot it’s for a bike and not for a veichle.
They focuse mostly on those nice graphics of the devices instead of the curcial thing.
I hope they’ll listen to the new customers. Because I am not going to buy this device ever again. D -
@Joen Tolgraven, calories measured by a HRM isn't a made up figure. It's science, backed by the research I posted. It's not as accurate as a power meter, but so what? A power meter isn't as accurate as measuring radioisotopes, the gold standard...so let's remove the calorie count based on a power meter as well, because by your standard, that's also "made up data". The power meter method doesnt take into account one's dress and the Thermostat...so let's remove it because it's made up data as well ..by your standards.
I returned my Karoo2 and got the Wahoo Bolt V2 color. I couldn't be happier with my decision. The Karoo is beta level software. Maybe in a couple of years they'll catch up to Garmin and Wahoo.
Now I need to figure out how to stop getting e-mails from this discussion, since I'm no longer caught in your Karoo vortex.
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The formula you posted might well be "accurate" across a population and over time (after all that's how it was derived), but a user is not a population and you're obviously not averaging your (running, in-ride) calorie count with your other rides. It's BMI-level stuff. Not fit for this purpose.
My efficiency factor (watts or normalized watts over HR) is _all over the place_ even for very similar rides. Only over many many months can any kind of trend be detected.
This refutes the "it might well be off but at least it's self-consistent" argument. It simply isn't.Again, there are much better formulas that take into account your HR reserve etc. They will still be wildly wrong and have weird swings, but at least won't be as comically incorrect as your Wahoo apparently is.
Won't engage with your bad faith nitpicking nonsense. A few percent off cannot be compared to 30-50%.
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Look, I received my K2 a couple weeks ago. Had I done enough reading here I MIGHT have waited. I get the disappointment and the longing for features that you may have become reliant on in other devices. That said, it’s not fair to say, because something you deem most important to you doesn’t show up in an update within a timeframe you feel is acceptable, that the Hammerhead team doesn’t care. I work in software and I can tell you quite certainly that the software arm of the Karoo team is working in 2-week blocks called “sprints” and that within those two week blocks there are tasks assigned based on priority. Items marked as P1 and P2 come first and are likely items that affect all users or the use of the device as a whole. Anything affecting device stability would be on this list. Other items will be backlogged. This does not mean that they are not important or that the team hasn’t heard you. It might be nice if the team would have a public facing roadmap of bugs and features being worked on or that is upcoming, but it’s certainly not standard practice to do that.
Regarding the practice of using heart rate to gauge calorie burn: as has been pointed out by other posts, HH lead with the most accurate way to show this, but I understand the desire to have what you’re used to in other devices—wildly inaccurate as it may be. Because no one tells you (unless you go digging for it in the manual) that it’s estimated and, based on individual physiology could be way off, we’ve come to assume a certain level of exactness. After all, everyone is showing cals burned based on HR so it must be somewhat accurate, right? 🤷♂️🤦🏻
If enough people clamor for it, it will become reality. I promise that it’s already on the radar. Patience is hard though—I do get it.
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@chris
To be honest I am not sure what you are trying to say with patience , but if you see my first post is two years ago and no one gives a s****t about the customer.
I am following the post as curiosity but I am already a happy Garmin 1030 Plus user and I’ll never go back to Hammerhead.
When you buy a device you don’t buy the hardware but the service.
I am sure the moderator will delete my message as they did deleted many of them before. -
Julien, all I’m saying is that most people don’t understand how software is produced. Ensuring that the device is stable overall is the first priority. Everything after that is prioritized by whats going to sell more units and what customers are clamoring for. My guess would be that there has been more feedback for other things and that is why calorie burn by HR has not shown up more quickly. It is not due to a lack of empathy.
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Tbf @chris I suspect this is more of an active decision made by HH. It may be on the list but tbh I doubt this'd be complicated and there has been a lot of user clamouring for it. It should certainly be of higher priority than some of recent bits in the updates.
That said, HH will have a roadmap and prioritised list as well as bug list. The prioritised list and linkage to a certain potential sprint or release will be based upon complexity, what HH want and to some degree what the user wants. I don't think it's fair to say HH don't care as tbh the user's all have different wish lists and different priority levels for those and so with every release there are always users moaning about what is and isn't in it.
To this point, HH have produced a fine bit of kit and all be it with things we don't like or holes, I do think they've sent the right to be trusted on there roadmap
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