First Impressions - should i abandon already?
Answered
I thought I'd be happy to support a start up, but straight out of the box there are some apparently significant issues..
- no "go to" navigation: the concept of routes only is seriously flawed - i want my bike gps to help me get to places. I should be able to enter a postcode or street address and navigate from where I am. (massive problem)
- route/navigation set up is only possible with an internet connection. this is pretty pointless. if i am lost in the middle of nowhere, or i don't have internet, and who knows if my phone has battery - have you been to the lake district? (massive problem)
- poor display of GPS signal acquisition (the red/white triangle thingy conveys little information and is often overwritten by other items in the display)- no GPS information page.
- huge overemphasis on "profile" selection on main screen - but really this isn't important at all.
- inability to move to different "profiles" during a ride (well, you can do it, but it is very unergenomic, long press on bottom-right button, home, select new profile) - rides do vary from hill to flat and back.
- inability to change data fields in profile while riding (minor)
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Official comment
Hey James, Thanks for your honest feedback here, We look forward to such feedback that will help us drive the product towards a better direction and a product that everyone will enjoy. We are gearing up to come out with certain changes in our UI/UX very soon. Here are our responses to the points you put forward :- No “Go-To” Maps - Yes, Agreed that this would be a great feature to have and an easier experience in terms of planning and plotting rides. I have ensured to put this on our feature request list. In the interim, As suggested by Gilles, You can route to your point of interest in the map by tapping on it.
- No routing without Internet - While, being lost can be quite stressful, you can insert a SIM card into the Karoo so you can have an active cellular connection, It does connect to a 4G network so in the event that you lose connectivity mid-ride, the Karoo has already plotted the remainder of the route. You can alternatively connect your phone hotspot as you mentioned However it would be hard to ascertain the outage of network or GPS signal as it does get affected by the geography of the region.
- Overemphasis on “Profile” selection - We went ahead with this particular format of the main screen as it was based on extensive market research and user interviews.
- Inability to move to different profiles - While you have already mentioned the work around here, We will take this as feedback and work on improving the experience here
- Inability to change data fields while riding - You can choose to change the data fields during the ride, you can long hold button D and head back into the Profiles App and edit the profile that you are riding on, Then again you can create any number of profiles base on the type of ride and sensors that you would use :)
As mentioned before, I have ensured to have your feedback and suggestions trickle back to the teams. I would urge you to ride with the Karoo as it is an ever-improving unit.Comment actions -
yup, that's very, very annoying. They are aware of that and (supposedly) are working on it. no timeline of course.
just in case you hadn't noticed, if you can find the place you want to go to on the map, you can long press on it and create a route to there on the fly, without need of entering the address or having internet connection.
another alternative solution: some of us have sideloaded OSMand for emergency situations when there is no network and we need routing to some place we have to search by name. it works well, but requires to setup a whole other navigation solution (download more maps, configure all the options....), which is a bit of a pain if one considers it would be used very seldom (if at all) -
Still just exploring the device (and will continue to do so in my 45 day 'remorse' period!
Agree, the inability to plot routes on the device (postcode etc) or a svelt companion app is a huge disadvantage.
Also think way too much emphasis given to profiles on 'home' screen. I have no sensors and won't so move on forever. (I bought the device purely because it had the best screen for navigation).
One other thing which is just me maybe. But one of the first things you do so immediately builds frustration. The screw for the mount is too short by 5mm. Had really big problems trying to get purchase when fixing the mount to the bars. Very simple fix.
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It's not just you, Jeff; I pointed out my difficulties getting the mount bolt to bite in my First Impressions post 2 months ago:
https://support.hammerhead.io/hc/en-us/community/posts/1260800638289-Karoo-2-First-Impressions
You're right; the getting started experience needs to be flawless. A slightly longer bolt would have alleviated this frustration.
I would like to see the Sensors and Workouts icons removed if you do not have any external sensors connected or an account with Training Peaks configured. Too much emphasis has been placed on these and I suspect your average recreational Karoo 2 users do not have an account with Training Peaks. Also agree with you on the Profiles piece on the Home screen. I actually started redesigning the Karoo 2 UI but never completed it.
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Same here, doing my best to convince myself i wanna keep it. Already wrote the return request but haven't sent it yet... just giving it a few more days...
My reasons:
- lack of galileo (despite support reported it was supported). I can see a big accuracy difference compared to cheaper devices with galileo
- poor maps: i use the device mostly (if not solely) for mountain biking. I need to see a map that reflects reality, not just a white sketchy map where only paths are displayed and many times a major path (good for gravel biking) and a minor hiking path share the same colours and thickness
- sideloading apps is very limited: not having google play services makes it impossible for some of my must have apps.
As said, sadly thinking of returning the k2... we'll see
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Gilles, I used open mtb maps for my Garmin. They are mtb customised osm maps and they get updated every 2 weeks on average. I cycled from Malaga to the French border 18 months ago ( 75% off road ) using their maps and every track was present. They have a free or a paid version ( £15 per annum ) and have water points etc included.
If I load my gpx file of that trip onto the Karoo maps, a large % of the trails don’t exist. The track crosses area’s just shown as open green space. It’s the devices biggest failing for me as a mostly mtb rider. I can live with not so great default maps (Garmin no better than Karoo for me) as long as I can replace them with something. Side loading map apps is just a sticking plaster fix, not the solution.
I think the website is openmtbmaps.org or something like that if you want to check it out.
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@Gilles
I've always used twonav, it's a Spanish company that sells gps devices and also have the app both in google play and in its own website
I do not recommend that you buy the google play version right now bc it has a big bug for android 10 and 11 (supposedly to be solved in April). And you know, karoo does not support google play apps.
You can buy the app in twonav.com which grants you 3 or 5 activations i think, so you can have it in your karoo and your phone. It's a one time purchase some 7 euro.
The activation when bought at twonav.com is a bit complex.
- create account at twonav.com
- buy the app
- download the apk*
- *Do not install v310, install 3.8 instead (https://www.twonav.com/download/TwoNav_Outdoor_GPS_Map_Navigation-3.3.8-full.apk). Don't know why the 310 does not show ant+ sensors in the karoo.
- install the apk in the karoo
- open app, enter your credentials (same as in twonav.com)
- then go to config, system, device, activation info
- copy the device ID: X-XXXXX-XXXXXX-XXXXX (forget the final *XX)
- get back to twonav.com users area, your sofware, copy the registration code (your purchase)
- now go to https://www.twonav.com/en/service/activate?&utm_source=Land&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=generic
- enter the registration code (purchase) then the devide id (you karoo id) and download the activation file (deviceid.mkeyb)
- copy that mkeyb to your karoo's folder twonavdata
that's it
You can in fact activate the app from the app itself (easier) but i recommend the mkeyb process. In case you need to reinstall you just use the mkeyb to activate again.
The app is a little old fashioned, it has a lot of configs that can scare some users, but it's really good for orientering. Do not expect good metrics for workouts, training etc, the app is intended mostly for following routes over a map either for hiking or biking, you can choose a lot more but it's essentially the same. Nothing to do with strava, connect and the alike.
It has some maps online and they in fact sell maps, but you can create your own maps with mobac using your preferred maps source. Have a look at my webstie (www.perchera.com), you can find a collection of maps for Spain and tutorials for mobac. I am sure you can make your own maps for wherever you live or travel.
And finally, you can use twonav for free rides (just ride and log your track) or you can load gpx files downloades from other sources, say wikiloc, open the gpx and follow it. Twonav will alert you if you deroute. For more complex turn by turn directions you need either a vector routable map or a gpx previously edited with waypoints (alerts and turns).
I wish we could sideload wikiloc in the karoo, another favourite app but unfortunatly wikiloc needs google play services
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thanks Colin, interesting stuff.
going to openMTB website, I see they're based on OpenStreetMap, same as Karoo (well, Mapbox is...). I guess it would be then be possible to port that to Karoo...
I remember some conversations on (this?) forum about people managing to customize their maps (either editing the stylesheet, which was as easy as editing an .xml file, or uploading 3rd party maps) I tried it myself, it works but it's not a very easy task and I don't know if it's still possible to do so (I noticed some files and folders are hidden now...) otherwise, we would have to ask Hammerhead to allow openMTB (or an alternative) as an option, and be patient, as they seem to be more focused on the roadies for now. -
ah yeah, definitely digressing on your initial topic, sorry...
I wouldn't be too nervous on the Google Play Services anyway, HH usually acknowledge when a feature request can at least be discussed in their meetings... they've been consistently silent about this in all the years I've been here 😅
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Thanks Akhil for your comments, but i feel they hugely overestimate the acceptability of the "workaround"
"Go-To" - you need to b able to navigate by town / city / postcode - if i want to go to "sw1a 1aa", or "Chiswick", " or "Woking" - i don't want to look this up zoom and and out scroll around and all over the place. The route marking is then too easy to cancel (with X which takes up screen real estate)
routing without internet - this is pretty much the entire purpose of offline maps. you are making a category error of assuming that everywhere has connectivity - it simply doesn't. you can have very good GPS coverage but no cellular. i don't want to set up my phone hotspot to navigate to a place. if i wanted to have require on connectivity - i'd just use google maps.
Overemphasis on “Profile” selection - based on extensive market research and user interviews. :- but are you sure that the people you asked are representative of the market? all this VO2Max, Power meter, indoor stuff maybe implies that you only asked a vocal subset - i'm a keen bike commuter and bike tourist...James
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@James, sorry for the disgression
@Gilles, here some screenshot of that app (taken in my phone, easier than in the karoo)
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dy9o1quu5mlvocu/AAA81-q2mvK4ZgMEDx0W-ATna?dl=0
As you see the interface is a bit old fashioned (will be nicer when the launch the new version that they already use in their gps devices)
The app is ideal for hiking and mountain bike. Lacks many features if you're focused on training and metrics. After ride you can upload your gpx to connect or strave for analysis.
ps: raster maps (classic and satellite) are quite heavy, you need to limit the amount of them according to your storage. Osm vector maps on the contrary, around 900mb all of Spain. Raster created with mobac in .rmap format using the Spanish National Geography (IGN.es) as a source.
Regards
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routing without internet - this is pretty much the entire purpose of offline maps. you are making a category error of assuming that everywhere has connectivity - it simply doesn't. you can have very good GPS coverage but no cellular. i don't want to set up my phone hotspot to navigate to a place. if i wanted to have require on connectivity - i'd just use google maps.
This one is a genuine dealbreaker. I've been on the fence about picking up a Karoo 2 and was doing some reading before I pulled the trigger, but if one of the product management team's basic assumptions is that people using a bike GPS navigator are going to have internet access at all times (as Akhil mentions), well ... that's a little baffling. One of the major use cases for a dedicated GPS unit would absolutely have to be, I think, to make it easier to go to remote places where cell tower connectivity is spotty or non-existent.
I've been looking to get away from the Garmin ecosystem because of its bugginess and lack of readability on sunny days due to the highly reflective screen (old eyes), but I've never had an issue with this most basic of navigation tasks.
Are there plans to add unit-based (non-internet connected) routing in the future?
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