Bug Report: Karoo makes planned routes worse
I am surprised that Karoo changes planned routes from Komoot on its own and I don't understand why this happens. Here is an example of a route planned in Komoot (Germany/Bavaria):
If I load the route in Karoo and I select "Follow as breadcrumb" everything is fine:
If I load the route and I select "Follow route" (to get TBT navigation) the route is changed, but the change doesn't make sense:
Changing Routing prefers (Pavement, Gravel, Trail) or Ride Type (Road, E-Bike, Mountain Bike, Gravel, E-Mountainbike, Velomobile) doesn't solve the problem.
Now I've tried the navigation to a POI and everything works as expected:
Let's have a look at the roads in Openstreetmap:
The small path in the east of this path is identically tagged)
Both roads are highway = path. The first one with bicycle = designated, the other one with highway = yes. Bicycle = designated is similar to bicycle = yes, but you have to use it instead of a (car) road nearby (in Germany).
Let's check the positions in the gpx file of Komoot:
...
lat=48.079852 lon=11.610267
lat=48.079862 lon=11.610224
lat=48.079947 lon=11.609955
...
These are exactly the positions of the desired section (consisting of two pathes).
I have several questions:
- Why does Karoo doubt the route of Komoot und tries to "improve" it if I select "Follow route"? Is this really necessary to be able to perform turn-by-turn-navigation?
- Why are the algorithms of "Navigate to POI" and "Follow route" different?
- Why does Karoo take a diversion and not use the direct route?
- Does Karoo prefer bicycle = yes to bicycle = designated? In my opinion Karoo should always allow routing with highway = * and bicycle = yes|designated|optional_sidepath|dismount.
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+1
Noticed this behavior yesterday. Below you can find an extract from my route.
Route in dashboard (same as planned in Komoot):
When following route on my k2:
I just double checked and can confirm that the route remains the same when I choose "follow as breadcrumb" instead.
Some settings in used profile:
- Routing prefers: Pavement
- Default ride type: Gravel
Independently from road conditions etc. as mentioned above I find it quite odd that the computer applies unnoticed changes on a planned route.
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+1 to this bug.
This has happened to me a few times. For example, instead of taking the gravel path alongside the fence, it redirected me to the gated office complex. When you add a route, it reroutes you and alters your original route.
This is definitely a bug.
Before:
After:
Note: the directional arrows from the original route are still visible.
Video link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HLuS78cPDkGRXMNiAkg4dhTo-5IZR5jF/view?usp=sharing
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+1
Very frustrating bug, right now it’s one of the main issues that makes me unable to recommend this navigation to people who ride for squadrats or wandrer.
We can keep sending more evidence, but this bug should already be well known to support - I reported exactly the same issue a year ago, including GPX files, screenshots, and detailed descriptions. Yet nothing has been fixed since then.https://support.hammerhead.io/hc/en-us/community/posts/27593907826715-Stop-recalculating-routes
Here’s another video showing the bug - https://streamable.com/wkbkg4
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Because of this bug, I can’t use regular navigation and have to rely on the Breadcrumb Routing option instead.
The problem is, Breadcrumb is missing a really useful feature - the turn arrows with distance indicators.If you don’t know how to fix the original bug, then at least please add the arrow+distance feature to Breadcrumb routing. I requested this about a year ago too, and many users showed interest - but again, nothing came of it. :(
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I noticed a long time ago that the dashboard changes the route in relation to the imported gpx after adding a new point in the dashboard. Sometimes I want to modify something else before driving and I don't feel like starting another planner (and then saving, importing or synchronizing), so by quickly making a change in the dashboard I can assume that it will also change the route in a few other places. I thought it does it according to the selected profile, so I stopped selecting the profile, and the changes are still made. Probably the navigation in the device itself does the same, creating a "better" route than I wanted. I didn't document it, but that's how it is. And then it turns out that I didn't ride as I originally planned.
Maybe sometimes rerouting changes the course of the route when I leave it, to return to it by the shortest point, not necessarily to the point of leaving the route. That's why I also suggested making such a switch to return exactly to the place of leaving the route. It would be possible to make short "trips" off the route and return to the place of exit.
https://support.hammerhead.io/hc/en-us/community/posts/36324436260635-Return-to-the-exit-point-from-the-route -
I'm not sure what the reason is for these deviations from the originally planned route. I've experienced this a few times with all three major manufacturers (Garmin, Wahoo and Hammerhead), especially when importing a route from Komoot. It's not a big deal to me, because when I notice a deviation like this, I'm usually on a part of my route where I know which way to go. The question for me is how often I don't even notice such a change, because often I spontaneously plan a route in the Komoot app and send it to my device and in this case I can't say exactly what the original route from Komoot was.
Could be the underlying map and routing data sources (as written in a separate post), could be that Komoot sometimes has very interesting opinions on where I should ride that Hammerhead/Garmin/Wahoo don't share?
Right now I'm trying a Bryton S series unit and they add tbt directions in their app and woww, that's really bad with some routes, a complete mess at some corners.With these kinds of bugs, I decided for myself to just use breadcrumb navigation for the rest of the summer (on every device I have). In the spirit of less is more.
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I just purchased this navigation and noticed that my favourite track is being changed after applying TBT.
So if you said that they didnt address this since 1 year I will be returning device as I want to ride my own tracks without doubting and going through the track which is risky because navigation says so. I had Bryton before and it said to go through the lake, and here processing is the same, I could take straight line but your TBT says to go right through lake shore. I can’t accept it. -
Ok after analysis of the track from KOMOOT I noticed guys that Hammerhead Karoo has banned all the pavements for pedestrians from use so if the track goes through dashed brown line Karoo 3 /routing engine/ tries to change the surface type from pedestrian only to any other track which is allowed by the routing tool /decision engine/
I launched Hammerhead Dashboard and chose Gravel surface - simply clicked on two points and I received gravel path! Garmin Connect would go through cycleway/pavement/ road regardless the option GRAVEL. So I need to cancel my words I can accept it and I take it! -
It looks like rerouting ignores some disallowed parameters and have the access to more options and navigation to POI has slightly different decision engine as it goes on fly. I really would need to check what are the conditions but looks like the Route has different as I said allowed params to use, navigation to POI is less demanding and the same with rerouting.
Looks like this is similar implementation to Garmin one but better from what I observed
Route - the most demanding some paths are banned (brown dashed lines)
POI track - less demanding it can accept some compromise
Rerouting - even less demanding and it stick you to the nearest point.It is all based on the basket of the option in real time. I feel like this works better for customer/rider than Garmin. Which can choose road always as priority, Karoo chooses based on preferred surface type at most of the time and uses as well heatmaps.
Looks like Garmin implementation is really old, but looks Hammerhead guys did it better.
Anyway if you dont accept how it follows you then you can make wrong turn and then reroute will give you better path. -
Having said that, if I disable the rerouting option, it should stick to my route 100% of the time. There should be no deviation. Even if my route goes through the Moon! :)
This is particularly important in Warsaw, Poland, where new bike paths are built every month and one-way roads have exceptions for bikes - my planned route must not change.Is there any chance that we have some attention from the Karoo Support here?
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My comment is still pending
Ok after analysis of the track from KOMOOT I noticed guys that Hammerhead Karoo has banned all the pavements for pedestrians from use so if the track goes through dashed brown line Karoo 3 (routing engine) tries to change the surface type from pedestrian only to any other track which is allowed by the routing tool (decision engine)
I launched Hammerhead Dashboard and chose Gravel surface - simply clicked on two points and I received gravel path! Garmin Connect would go through (cycleway/pavement) road regardless the option GRAVEL. So I need to cancel my words I can accept it and I take it!Does not pavement/paved style work for you Piotr?
I dont know whether Karoo offers Ignore paths style in routing engine, I dont see any Urban style, but maybe velomobile is what you need to select and give a try? Or e-bike most probably is a profile that you are looking for. Give a try, I wanted to return device and then noticed that hammerhead dashboard works for me better than komoot…
Especially for gravel paths. -
The screenshot in the initial post looks to me like the problematic section is tagged highway=construction in the version of the map data that Karoo uses, even if it has since been changed in the OSM data. Considering that the map data in the unit is almost certainly more out of date than that of any route planning platform (shared static routes excepted), I guess it would make sense to ignore the construction tags for imported routes, and in general to stick to the route.
Thanks for highlighting this, there’s at least one section where I have noticed routes doing weird things (probably because of old construction as well), I thought it was Komoot doing Komoot things but I didn’t notice anything unusual there and this seems like a more plausible explanation.
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Anna is not Komoot fail is just a issues in base map coding i noticed several times that Karoo’s map on device shows light purple or blue overlays to show heatmaps. This is taken directly from Suunto. But in my area Blue lines are being recognized as FOREST and it makes them invisible for Karoo device and then it creates alter route even though this is taken from heatmap. They should update this as OSM data is having glitches and nothing more irritates me from being unable to ride fine track/path which I create based on those heatmaps… I am really dissapointed with their OSM interpratation and in my opinion they should already update at least heatmaps to provide stable information about paths. And if people ride with those tracks/paths and Hammerhead marked them with unique color but challenging is to update OSM data to let people use them I have found in my surroundings several glitches and support is deaf for my remarks that they should update the data in OSM to special category based on Suunto heatmaps to let people use them…
Maybe I am demanding too much but in my area is a lot of heatmap based tracks unfortunately rerouting doesnt work properly and it chooses always unsatisfied track.
I am not mentioning here Garmin because their ActiveTopo cover is also unsatisfied but at least Garmin wont change a track, it will provide you wrong TBT with a lot of u turns which you can ignore and rerouting will be unsufficient too but Wahoo works completely fine in my area. I do support small brands and that is why I purchased Karoo over the Wahoo but I hope that they will update the Basemap or as I said make some interpretation of it and heatmaps together…
We all deserve it as Karoo users… -
I’m not sure if this was widely publicized when it was released (I certainly missed it), but it looks to me like the blue lines are sections where Climber would be active (I have the feature disabled so I wouldn’t know, but they seem to match roads with climbs).
I wouldn’t expect Hammerhead to use heatmaps for routing at all, if there is a path on the heatmap that is missing from the map proper, add it to OSM instead.
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Normal route lines with outline in blue and purple on your base map on device without loaded route.
I expect to use this heatmaps to cover the OSM gaps or glitches. And I can create route in whatever software I can but this is pointless since I cant draw a line in hammerhead dashboard across outline blue purple ones, and I found that OSM map just dont have sufficient details of tracks. I did compare to the other Hammerhead rivals like Garmin, Wahoo. But I found that in my area the data must be old or for Poland we have a lot of OSM processing errors…
I dont understand why, everything should be polished or let people upload their own maps like Garmin did…
I am tired of cycling ahead for 1km but Karoo says that I have to turn Right to road from cycleway and then go ahead for 300m and then turn left to the original cycling way… And I was riding cycleway before really this kind of experience was Garmin from my nightmares. And I bought Karoo because I heard mostly positive opinions. And I dont care about anything else but maps navigation and rerouting because I ride mostly gravel through forest trails so if I miss a turn because I cant go through then I need validation of device since it doesnt show or it shows some fake paths…
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